we talked before the election, you thought it was -- america was doomed if romney didn't win. this fiscal cliff negotiation seems doomed. am i being pessimistic? >> we're basically spending like europeans, but being taxed like americans. at some point you got to decide which you want. basically american government spending now is getting close to norwegian levels. and at that point, you can't have american tax levels. >> brian: what is their level? >> they spend 46% of gdp and people pay that. that's reflected in their taxes. america is basically borrowing $188 million every hour in washington. seven days a week, 24 hours a day, thanksgiving, ramadan, whatever. that gap cannot be closed by sticking to to the rich. >> brian: don't you think the president realizes that or do you think he fully realizes that in. >> oh, yeah, he does. this is the cunning thing. he's going to blame it on the rich, blame it on the republicans. but right now if you're just an average working guy with an average income, your taxes are going to go up because for him -- pour for the president, it's not